About Me

  • I'm the lead pastor of Five Oaks Community Church in Woodbury, MN where we seek to bring lives to Christ and Christ to everyday life. I also do a pretty mean Kramer imitation.
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July 04, 2008

Ministry Can Be Hard...How to Last

Rick Warren offers seven principles for lasting in ministry from the Apostle Paul in 2 Corinthians 4. Here are some highlights. These principles were forged in the difficulties of Paul's ministry.

1. Learn to enjoy the grace of God. “Therefore, since God in his mercy has given us this new way, we never give up” (2 Corinthians 4:1 NLT). Paul knew the only reason he had a ministry was because of God’s grace. So often we hear Satan whispering in our ears that we’re not good enough, not smart enough, and not "spiritual" enough to be a pastor. We need to remember that God does everything to us, through us, and for us by grace through faith...

2. Be authentic. “Instead, we have renounced shameful secret things, not walking in deceit or distorting God’s message, but in God’s sight we commend ourselves to every person’s conscience by an open display of the truth” (2 Corinthians 4:2 NLT). Paul tells his readers, “What you see is what you get.” He wasn’t hiding anything. If you’re going to last in ministry, you’ve got to be what God has called you to be. You’ve got to take off the mask...

3. Remember it’s not about you. ...Twice in this passage (in verses 5 and 11), Paul tells his readers why he does what he does – for Jesus' sake. Why does he deal with the whippings, imprisonments, and criticism (2 Corinthians 11)? For Jesus' sake. His motivation isn’t his own well-being, but the global glory of God. And he’d do whatever it takes to see that expand. You’ve got to live for an audience of one. If you don’t get over the fear of criticism, you’ll never last in ministry.

4. Accept your own limitations. “Now we have this treasure in clay jars, so that this extraordinary power may be from God and not from us” (2 Corinthians 4:7 NLT)....

5. Do everything out of love. “For all this is because of you, so that grace, extended through more and more people, may cause thanksgiving to overflow to God’s glory” (2 Corinthians 4:15 NLT). Paul says everything he does is for the benefit of others....Ministry has to be based on that kind of love. You’ve got to think of others before yourself. If you don’t love those you’re ministering to, ministry will be a long, almost unbearable road. You won’t make it. You must be motivated by love – love for God and love for others.

6. Make time for daily renewal. “Therefore we do not give up; even though our outer person is being destroyed, our inner person is being renewed day by day” (2 Corinthians 4:16 NLT). ...I once owned a car that lasted 20 years because it was serviced regularly. You’re not going to last 20 years in ministry if you aren’t serviced regularly. You’ve got to divert daily, withdraw weekly, and abandon annually. Do something fun every day. Take a Sabbath day of rest every week. Get away for a vacation every year. You need to rest and recharge. In fact taking a Sabbath is so important that God commands it right along with not lying and not killing people. You need rest if you’re going to last in ministry.

7. Live in light of eternity. “For our momentary light affliction is producing for us an absolutely incomparable eternal weight of glory. So we do not focus on what is seen, but on what is unseen; for what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal” (2 Corinthians 4:16-17 NLT). Remember Paul experienced all kinds of trials. He was beaten, shipwrecked, and criticized, but he called them just momentary afflictions. Why? He had an eternal perspective....

July 03, 2008

Essentials Multiplied

The reason I think Discipleship Essentials has such long-term potential goes beyond the material we're covering. I think the content is vitally important. Our chapter on Worship (and the holiness of God), for example, is one of the most critical lessons any follower of Christ can begin to learn.

Covering these topics, memorizing Scripture, the reading...all of these are catalysts for growth. Doing them in the context of small groups of three or four (no more, no less) is essential. But the greatest impact will come as everyone who is participating goes out and engages two or three more people and leads their own 25-week group. And then does it again. And again. And so on.

Leading others through the same material is where explosive growth begins for any disciple. And the more people go through this in our church and beyond, the greater depth and dedication to Christ we'll see in our small groups, evangelistic outreach and compassion work locally and around the world. I don't expect to start seeing momentum on this for two or three years, but when we do, I can't wait to see what will happen.

Pastor Bob Brueggen

Pastor Bob Brueggen has taken a new position as Executive Pastor for Harvest Bible Church in Bettendorf, Iowa.  He will be assuming this position August 1st. While we are happy for them in this new opportunity, we will miss their whole family. Pray for them as they prepare to sell their house, move their family, and begin this new adventure in ministry. Bob and Dottie and their boys, Jonathan and Matt are excited about what God has in store for them, but are also saddened to leave the Woodbury/Hudson area and Five Oaks.  We have planned a farewell open house for their family on July 20th, 3:00-5:00pm, at the Teens for Christ Center in Hudson.

July 02, 2008

First Time Guests to Hudson - How They Found Us

Since Easter, our first time guests (by household) to Hudson have found us in the following ways (through June 22):

  • Impact Card: 11 (eight on June 22)
  • Web site: 0
  • Invitation: 10
  • Billboard: 4
  • Other: 6

First Impressions Update

One comment card returned from a first time guest to Woodbury:

  • The musical worship was great and something I really needed at the time. Thanks for honoring God and His Word.

June 27, 2008

Home Sweet Home

So glad to be home. I missed MN. Two weeks gone just felt too long. Got up at 3:30 a.m. (CA time) to go to Discipleship Essentials this morning. Tired all morning but got my second wind by afternoon. Had coffee with John Westurn and it was like old times. I miss him a lot.

Lois is still at the Castaway, the Young Life camp in the Detroit Lakes area. It'll be sweeter when she gets home. She's loving it there and is very impressed by the spiritual and evangelistic passion of the staff there. Great speaker too.

I spent the day working on my message. Got it done around 8:00 p.m. I'm excited about it. We're on the P of S.H.A.P.E. Launch The Gap series on Abraham in two weeks.

June 26, 2008

Essentials

I can't think of anything I'm doing right now in ministry that has more potential for spiritual and missional long-term impact than what we're doing every Friday at 6:00 a.m. in the Commons. Twenty-six guys in seven small groups for twenty-five weeks. Lois is doing the same thing with two women from our small group.

We're all using Discipleship Essentials: A Guide to Building Your Life in Christ by Greg Ogden. Everyone completes the study before attending and then we spend time in small groups discussing what we've learned and talking about our lives in Christ. Every study has a Core Idea, Memory Verses, Bible Study, a Reading, Questions on the Reading.

A life on mission begins and is sustained by personal life transformation. This study digs deeply into the major topics every disciple needs for personal transformation and life mission. Here are the topics that are covered:

Part One: Growing Up in Christ
1 - Making Disciples
2 - Being a Disciple
3 - Quiet Time
4 - Bible Study
5 - Prayer
6 - Worship

Part Two: Understanding the Message of Christ
7 - The Three-Person God
8 - Made in God's Image
9 - Sin
10 - Grace
11 - Redemption
12 - Justification
13 - Adoption

Part Three: Becoming Like Christ
14 - Filled with the Holy Spirit
15 - Fruit of the Holy Spirit
16 - Trust
17 - Love
18 - Justice
19 - Witness

Part Four: Serving Christ
20 - The Church
21 - Ministry Gifts
22 - Spiritual Warfare
23 - Walking in Obedience
24 - Sharing the Wealth

Bonus Section
25 - Money

June 25, 2008

More Saddleback Worship Conference

Some more impressions from the conference:

  • Great worship. The session picture below was at a worship session led by Paul Baloche. His guitarist is worship leader at Valley Creek Church that meets at the indoor central park in Woodbury. In the earlier session they had their youth worship team lead a few Hillsongs United songs and it was outstanding.
  • Buddy Owens did a talk on worry that was built around a personal story that was powerful. I'll have to retell it some time.
  • Went to two sessions today. One on multi-site where I learned that Saddleback started its first multi-site about two years ago with thirteen weeks notice!!!! They don't recommend it. Started with 1800 people and grew to about 400 in a few short weeks. No, not a typo. Their workshop shared more about what not to do than what to do. The other session was on how to use social media (e.g., blogs, Facebook, Twitter, etc.) in working with leaders. Extremely interesting and informative but made my head spin.
  • I got to talk to Hector and Beth Dalton's pastor from Tokyo. Told him how my visit to his church was one of the highlights from our Japan trip.
  • Worship pastors, on the whole, wear very interesting pants and hats and have some equally interesting haircuts. Fidel Castro hats are quite in vogue. I told one of our friends who is here and wearing one tonight that it's like me showing up dressed like Ben Laden. Just kidding, but could be true for some other Cubans.
  • Ate my favorite seafood soup at one of my absolutely favorite Mexican restaurants that I always go to when I'm here. Last night we went there as well and I had a beef tongue taco and a goat meat taco. Delicious. Hadn't had goat meat since Haiti last year and miss it. Tongue was quite tender. Of course, most of know that from biting our own.

Saddleback

June 24, 2008

First Impressions Report

Here are the latest comments we received back from first-time guests:

Woodbury

  • The service was fabulous!! My concern is that I don’t relate well to many of the statements on the “What We Believe” sheet. I’d like to learn more about these beliefs. The lesson during the service really spoke to me, so I plan to try Five Oaks again.
  • Really like use of multi-media. Great music! Very hopeful we’ve found a church for forever.

So, what's a worship arts conference like?

For those of you who haven't been to one, here's what it's like.
DSCF3305 DSCF3308

June 23, 2008

At the Saddleback Worship Arts Conference & Festival

Vacation ended yesterday afternoon and I'm back in work mode (i.e., I'm allowed to think about church leadership again...as if I stopped). Anyway, I'm at the Saddleback worship arts conference for the next few day with David and Melissa Gafford, Dave Belford (Programming Director) and Jonathan Haage (Associate Worship Arts Director...or is that associate to the director...just kidding for The Office fans). Lois headed out back to MN and she's at a Young Life summer camp at Castaway observing and helping out (Henry M. is counseling there with the high school group he works with in Eau Claire).

Getting away with a ministry team has incredible value. We're looking forward to connecting with other teams that are here from churches we know as well. I'll send updates about what we're learning and discussing as we go along.

The Power of Getting Away

Most of my best ideas and thinking come when I've gotten away. I'm not talking about vacation time. I try hard not to think about leading a church when I'm on vacation (Lois, don't laugh, you know I try). But when I go to a conference or to a retreat center or on a recon mission to another church, the ideas start flowing for our small groups, for improving my preaching, for ministry strategy, for leadership development.... Too many to do and not all good, but they flow.That's why I make it a point to get away in a learning environment.

I found this to be true for my personal life as well. There is power for marriage in getting away for a marriage conference, for parenting in getting away for a family camp or father/child retreat, for walking with God in getting away for a quiet retreat, for serving God in getting away on a missions trip. It's refreshing, but it's also creatively invigorating.

A few years into our marriage, Lois and I borrowed a friend's family cabin in Vermont (we lived in MA) and read a marriage book that guided us to develop a five year plan for our marriage. It was a great experience that got us talking about everything while being one of the most beautiful settings I've ever been in (isolated, snow encased, in the mountains). Now that I think about it, we started our family shortly after that. Was that part of the plan?

June 18, 2008

Fine China for Starving Children

"How can we multiply what we're doing if we haven't figured out yet how to get it right." Those are the words of one of my favorite pastors from one of the largest churches in America when he and his team sat around a table with the team from Community Christian Church to learn how to do multi-site. This is the church that put excellence on the radar screen for churches. The excellence of their services is so high, you can't help but marvel. Yet the senior pastor felt they hadn't yet grown up.

It reminds me of the realization I came to a couple of years ago. I would often talk about multiplying our church somewhere out there in the future. This is a high biblical value. What were we waiting for? Well, we needed to be fully staffed. We had a lot to learn. We hadn't figured it out yet. Sure, we would multiply...when we grew up.

Excellence is important. But sometimes it gets in the way of ministry. Yes, it's not excellence per se; it's perfectionism that gets in the way. But most of us can't really tell the difference. I know I had a blind spot on this and I saw it in one of the churches that came to the Hitchhiker's weekend. Several of them were struggling with how they could keep their value of excellence and multiply at the same time. That's not a bad desire or question, but as they talked I suspected something more than excellence driving their questions.

Reality is that if you multiply you have to give up your dreams of rock stardom in the kingdom.
You have to hold things more lightly. You can't have a superstar band at every location or church plant. You have to believe that God can work through less than professional musicians and vocalists and teachers.

You can wait until you've got it together. You can wait for that day your services run like clockwork and you have a multi-million dollar monthly budget so that you can launch a new site with a paid band and full staff of pastors. But how many churches ever reach that level of "stardom?" There are a handful in the Twin Cities. If you wait for that day, 99 times out of a 100, it won't come!

That pastor (one of my heroes) got over his perspective, and their church multiplied several times and their sites are achieving excellence (in the good way we all should). But as long as we persist on perfectionism (on "getting it right"), it's like having a boatload of food and refusing to feed starving children because you can't find enough fine china to serve it on.

Our world needs more healthy churches everywhere doing the work of the kingdom--demonstrating the kingdom through acts of compassion and proclaiming the message of God's grace. Something is deeply wrong when we fail to do so because we can't afford to offer it unless we serve it on fine china or with the perfect ambiance.

June 17, 2008

Jury's in...

Our first Sunday at Hudson 12 Theatre for our Hudson campus was a great success! I'm getting reports and have made a few calls from CAm and there's a lot of excitement. Great words too about Steve Haines, our interim worship leader, and Brian Burquest's debut as interim campus pastor. Here's a excerpt from one email:

...Today was an absolute home run in my opinion. The venue is a huge upgrade for worship - great acousitcs, effective lighting, and super overall feel. Very energizing. Could also really hear people sing around me which wasn't the case in the school. Loved the music being played behind the announcements at the end - provided energy... A couple of weeks ago I would've never dreamed we'd actually build momentum over the summer... Feel completely different after today....

Here's another one:

...By the way, the first Sunday at the theatre was great!  It will certainly be a draw in Hudson for the majority of people – it’s different.


In Case You Missed It

Here's the letter we sent out last week about changes at the Hudson campus:

June 10, 2008

Dear Five Oaks Family (at our Hudson Campus):

I hope you are as excited as I am about the move to the Hudson 12 Theatre this weekend.
This move reminds me of when I came to Five Oaks in 1997 and within seven months we changed our location and our name. I believe it’s going to be a catalyst to reach new people in the area, and it’s going to be a very effective location for holding services.

As I explained at our lunch meeting a few weeks ago at Faith Community, the move to the theater is a unique opportunity. As we enter this new season of ministry in a new location, we’re blanketing Hudson and every surrounding town with 27,000 impact cards announcing our move, promoting June 22 (giving us a week to work out some inevitable kinks). An exciting development is that all those homes will have already received a flyer from the theater itself. It’s a great one-two punch.

Because of this new opportunity, we need a leadership team in place for the summer, and Brian Burquest has agreed to serve as the interim Campus Pastor for Hudson. Brian and his family have been campus participants and leaders from day one, they are West Lakeland residents and Brian is on staff as Business Administrator. This will take effect June 15.

Pastor Bob will continue participating with the Hudson campus and he will be part of the transition team. The reason we are making this campus pastor change right now is because Bob needs his weekends free in his search for a full-time pastoral position, and we need a regular leadership presence on the weekends as new folks begin arriving over the summer. We’re planning a celebration of Bob’s leadership as Campus Pastor. Please be sure to personally thank Bob, Dottie and their family for all they’ve done to launch the campus and lead it. We really can’t say or do enough to thank them for their loving and caring leadership.

I also want to tell you about our interim Worship Leader for the campus. Steve Haines has been serving as the interim Worship Pastor at Church of the Open Door during the last year and a half. This church of more than 3000 people in average attendance has been one of the leading and most influential churches in the Twin Cities for years. We feel very fortunate to have him serve in this capacity for the summer months. We look forward to introducing him to you as he begins leading our Hudson services June 15.

I know these changes can cause some anxiety as we enter new territory. They are also tough because they include some good-byes. Please pray for our Hudson congregation, for Pastor Bob and his family and for the transition to the theater. I am praying for you and appreciate all you do to bring lives to Christ and Christ to everyday life in the Hudson area.

In Christ,

Pastor Henry Williams
Senior Pastor

June 16, 2008

Top 10 Observations from Hitchhiking

David Gafford and I spent a couple of days getting a behind the scenes look at Community Christian Church, a multi-site and church planting church with nine campuses and several affiliated plants. Their Hitchhiker's Guide to Multi-site event started with Leadership Community (this is one of the main reasons we went) and then we saw about five campuses between the two of us. We were there with about a dozen other churches (about 50 folks). CCC puts one of these on about four times per year.

Here are my top 10 observations:

  1. Leadership is hard, but you can make it fun. CCC knows how to have fun and modeled it well for us.
  2. No better way to train leaders than through apprenticeship. CCC drives home having apprentices at every level. CCC has leadership residencies where folks come to apprentice with a pastor for a year. The only cost to the church is the time of the leader. Some of thesse residents become campus pastors or church planters. If CCC had to pay for this, their reproduction would slow down to a crawl.
  3. If you don't write things down and develop policies, it will come back to bite you. CCC is notorious for not having policies and procedures, and I think it's catching up to them. On the other hand, their apprenticeship model is second to none.
  4. Policies can get in the way of kingdom work and a movement of God. That's the flip side of the last point. Part of the genius of CCC is that they don't have a bunch of policies and procedures. I believe policies are essential, but don't let them determine ministry. Flexible, adaptable, nimble, simple are all key words I will be using. 
  5. Constantly innovate. Example: With their ninth campus they've found a way to save money on rental and provide a great environment by setting up those tents/fenses n the gym in the picture above. 
  6. Every church that is on the go runs into some financial problems that result in a test and an opportunity. CCC had to do some layoffs this year for the first time ever. It tortured their senior pastor and embarrassed him (as he shared at Leadership Community). Yet it has provided an opportunity to analyze and improve. Over time the tendency is to get "fat." I'm absolutely convinced that "lean" is good for the kingdom. 
  7. Some people's definition of excellence get in the way of kingdom work. CCC doesn't let that happen. I'll do a whole post on this one.
  8. It's not about multi-site; it's about multiplication.
  9. Big asks get big results. When CCC plants a church in another city, it's typical for several families in the church to pull up stakes, find new jobs and homes and move with church planter! This is typical. 
  10. You can sometimes learn as much from people's mistakes as from their successes. The cool thing about this hitchhiking experience is that CCC isn't waiting until they get it all right to do it (they never will) and they're very open about what's going well and what's not. No pretension.
  11. [Bonus Obersvation] Great leaders don't hold on to things too tightly. I see this in Dave Ferguson. I need to learn this big time. That's the theme that keeps running through my head on this vacation.

June 14, 2008

Big Day Tomorrow and Some Other Stuff

Our first day at the Hudson 12 Theatre is on my mind a lot while I'm on vacation. I hate being away, but even if I was there, I'd be "away" in Woodbury, most likely. In any case, I'm praying and I'll be calling tomorrow to hear how it all went.

Just finished Season of a Life: A Football Star, A Boy, A Journey to Manhood. Great book on fatherhood, true masculinity, coaching sports, leading youth and high school football all rolled into one. Recommended to Lois and me by the Porters. Short read but filled with good stuff.

Not sure where we're going to church tomorrow, but likely will be North Coast, one of the leading multi-site churches in the country and a place I've been to a lot over the years. Always like to see what they're up to now.

June 13, 2008

Grandpa's 80th

Eighty years old is still young when you're talking to a 96-year-old. That's how old one of Grandpa's cousins is who came to his 80th birthday celebration. Yet 80 is huge, so the boys, Lois, uncle Larry and Aunt Pam, piled into our Honda Pilot and headed out to Bridgewater, SD for the celebration. Lois spent her first eight years in Liberia, Africa, where her parents were missionaries until they returned to the U.S. and settled in Grandpa's home town of Bridgewater. About seventy-five friends and family joined us at Trinity Orthodox Presbyterian Church to celebrate the day.

I had a senior moment in the program portion of the celebration. Calvin, Grandpa Dale's best friend from childhood, was up speaking. I turned to my son Aaron and said, "It's hard to imagine those guys running around when they were our age, isn't it?" Aaron looked at me with that "You're kidding, right?" look and said, "Our age?" I could have laughed and pretended like I was joking, but it shocked me too much because I realized I was indeed thinking of myself as Aaron's age (20). I guess I'm just young at heart. Yeah, that's it.
80th1 80th2 80th3

Very Simple, No Agenda, Cheap

Del1 Del2 Del5 Great feeling to wake up and not have anything you have to do. We're on day three of our very simple, no agenda vacation in CA. We're sitting in coffee shop in Del Mar, our favorite beach town in the San Diego area. Lois is doing some writing, so I'm doing some blogging. When we woke up on Wednesday and realized we had nothing we had to do, absolutely nothing, we were a little giddy after weeks of going pretty strong.

We're staying at Pine Valley Bible Conference Center, about 45 miles due east of San Diego on Hwy 8, a straight shot into the mountains. They have a special deal for pastors. Very simple, nothing fancy room. The last two days we've walked to breakfast on main street in Pine Valley, four miles round trip, in the dry, hot sunshine, marveling at the beauty of the desert mountains, huge pine trees and serene quiet and getting all caught up on stuff.

We did this last year, too. No plans for the week except to read, hike and soak in some sun on the beach (if June Gloom doesn't set in...yes, San Diego in June isn't always sunny). The U.S. Open is in a few short miles south of where we are right now, but we managed to avoid traffic. The cool, sunny day couldn't be nicer. Very refreshing.

June 08, 2008

What's missing in the spiritual gifts inventory?

We completed a spiritual gifts inventory this weekend in our services. Some may have noticed that a couple of spiritual gifts were missing, namely tongues and interpretation of tongues. We don't include those in our inventories because we don't need that information when it comes to helping people find a ministry role that fits their S.H.A.P.E.

Here's how we explain it in our Next Step seminar which helps get people on our ministry team:
The primary purpose of this inventory in Next Step is to help us place you in a ministry that fits your Servant Profile [that's another way of referring to S.H.A.P.E.] The gifts of tongues and interpretation of tongues are not essential to this purpose, so they are omitted from the inventory.

Many people want to know what our position is on tongues and interpretation of tongues. The use of tongues is discouraged in our worship services because of the size and nature of our services and because of the variety of evangelical traditions represented in our services. While we have much in common with "charismatic, evangelical" churches, Five Oaks members come predominantly from "non-charismatic, evangelical" churches. At Five Oaks we believe that tongues and interpretation of tongues are gifts operable today, but we ask that these gifts be used in personal worship times (1 Corinthians 14:4). In some circumstances, they be appropriate in a small group--if it is not divisive, if interpretation follows and if the group is in agreement on its practice.
I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. But in a church meeting I would much rather speak five understandable words that will help others than ten thousand words in an unknown language. (1 Corinthians 14:18-19)

June 04, 2008

The Last Sunday

The Hudson campus meets for it's last weekend at Hudson Middle School this Sunday. It's been a good home in many ways. It started with a bit of a hiccup when, after the first week, we were told we would not be given access to rooms any more. It all turned out well because of the way the school is laid out with a commons area for each group of classrooms. Other than that setback, we've had a very good relationship with the school and no problems.

On June 15 we move to the new Hudson 12 Theatre (yes, they use the European spelling) and our service time changes to 9:30 a.m. to accommodate getting out on time for movies to show. June 15 is our "soft opening." We've got impact cards going out to Hudson and surrounding communities promoting June 22. We want to get a week under our belts and past the inevitable glitches before we have a lot of people show up.

This Saturday is a "dress rehearsal." The logistics team and others will set up in the morning and make sure we know where the lights go, where we plug in, how sound and video will work, and a ton of other details. Thanks to all the volunteers that will be giving up their Saturday morning and then set up all over again on Sunday at the school.

Mark your calendars for June 15 or 22. We'd love to have a bunch of you come over and check it out.

First Impressions Weekly Update

Here are the latest comments from the cards we send first-time guests:

Woodbury

  • My husband and I really enjoyed our first visit--everyone was willing to answer our questions and the worship atmosphere was great!


Hudson

  • I would recommend the church to friends and colleagues who live in Hudson. It was fun to see the enthusiams of a new group.

June 02, 2008

Leadership Community

David Gafford and I are headed out to Community Christian Church in Naperville this week to participate in their "Hitchhikers Guide to Multi-site." I have a million questions I want to ask and lots I want to see. But the main purpose for going to is watch and learn how they do their "Leadership Community." They're one of the best practices churches I know of on this and I expect to learn a lot as we launch our Leadership Community in September.

So what is Leadership Community, you ask? It's a regular gathering (for us, every other month this next ministry year) of leaders where we can do vision casting, huddling and ongoing training. This is for small group leaders and coaches, children's  and youth leaders, First Impressions leaders...all church leaders. Imagine all of us reminded regularly why we do what we do, hearing stories of how God is working, making sure we're all on the same page and inspired together, huddling with coaches and coordinators to improve our skills and do problem solving, laughing and celebrating together....and so much more. That's Leadership Community.

But we still have a lot to learn about how to make that time productive, inspiring and worth the time for busy leaders. That's one of the goals of this trip, in addition to learning more about multi-site.

May 28, 2008

The Who Question

Once I got to the who question, the process began to become clear. This is still in the early stages of development, but it's a proven process adapted to our context. As you read this ask: Am I the leader? Will I be a part of this in some other leadership capacity? Let me know if you see yourself in this. I'm also looking for ideas on improving the process.

Stage One: Leader
Through prayer, observation and lots of conversations, we call a leader out. This leader, once identified, will need to be assessed and there are some great tools out there for this. The Free Church has an excellent one. If this person is the kind of leader that is a spiritual entrepreneur, we will begin to explore with him what the target area will be (the "where" question). Once the target is chosen, the leader will begin to seek out and call out others to join him in the process by starting a turbo small group. A turbo group is a group filled with folks that understand that after a given time they will multiply out and start their own group.

Stage Two: Group

This stage starts when the first turbo small group is formed. The small group starts meeting and begins to investigate local P.E.A.C.E. Dana can help with this community assessment process.

Stage Three: Groups
In this stage the turbo group begins to multiply and the pre-launch team grows. P.E.A.C.E. intitiatives in the target community continue and pick up momentum.

Stage Four: Gathering
After three groups have been formed, the groups begin to meet together weekly in addition to their small group meetings. At this point the Gathering replaces worship at an existing campus for most folks in the groups. The group can watch a video of the message together and do some singing in worship, but most of the time is spent on teaching and planning and praying about the next stage. P.E.A.C.E. projects continue in the target community. At this stage the launch team is assembled and volunteer roles begin to be filled with folks that will join the launch team once it launches. Financial infusion of some kind from Five Oaks begins at this point as well, but the launch team's giving will likely carry the day-to-day and staffing needs while Five Oaks may supply the equipment and advertising for the launch. (This is still in the idea stage and would need Board approval.)

Stage Five: Campus
The new campus launches when the team is set (especially key leaders, staff, and volunteers), and it launches as large as possible.

In actuality, we can expect a lot of variation in actual practice. But having a clear process helps us see what needs shoring up when things move fast, possibly skipping stages or when things develop differently. Variation should be expected as God moves in different ways through different leaders.

So, what do you think?

May 27, 2008

The Wrong Question

I've been asking the wrong question. Where do we go next to start a new campus? How do we determine where to go? Do we develop a team to decide? How much study, prayer and fasting? How and where. Not the right questions.

The right question is a who question. Who will lead the charge for the next campus? That's the right question for Five Oaks as far as I can tell. I had no peace with the other questions, but with this question, everything falls into place. This question makes clear what we have to do next and what I need to do in particular.

The who question...
  • Starts with prayer. Just like Jesus before choosing the disciples spent the night in prayer.
  • Clarifies my role (and that of other Five Oaks leaders). I must be about equipping leaders. And equipping leaders is about evangelizing, discipling and mentoring. I can't just be on the lookout for leaders; I have to be equipping them.
  • Clarifies the process. I'll write more on this later, but I see us using a more organic process in most of our future launches, although some will resemble our Hudson launch.
Who will lead the charge? Who will be the next campus pastor? I don't know who it is, but the next campus pastor is almost surely already in our congregation. In fact, I suspect the next five or six are. Some are not yet believers and are waiting for a Five Oaker to walk across the room to them, praying that God create the opening to bring Christ into the conversation. Some may be in college or seminary right now wondering what's next. Is it you?

May 23, 2008

Notes from Perry Noble, talk by Rick Warren:

Eight Laws Of Spiritual Growth…

#1 - Spiritual Growth in Incarnational
  • Spiritual growth is Christ in you…being a Christian is not trying to be like Christ…it is Christ living through you!  (Galatians 2:20)
  • Spiritual growth is both mystical and practical.  I Corinthians 3:6…in spiritual growth we have a part and God has a part!  Philippians 2:12-13
  • We are to work out our salvation while God works in our salvation!
#2 - Spiritual Growth Is Intentional
  • You have to choose to grow!  We grow by making commitments.  You are as close to God as you choose to be…stop blaming others (husband, wife, friends…)
  • Get people to make commitment…not move to it.  Once people make the commitment then they grow through it.
  • Jesus first asked people to follow Him…that’s it!  It was three years later He asked people to take up their cross.  The level of commitment deepened with time.
  • We need to be a balanced church that challenges people to both “come and see” and “come and die!”  This is a process.
  • Everyone will NOT BE at the same level of commitment.
  • To the non-believer Jesus said “come and see,” to the believer Jesus said “go and tell!”
  • Once again…commitment MUST be asked for!!!  The heat must constantly be turned up!
  • Providing message notes helps people to remember the message–we forget around 95% of what we hear withing 72 hours.  The problem many times is not a matter of dedication but rather retention!
  • Why use outline and handouts?  #1, It increases attention.  #2, It increases retention.  #3, It increases participation.  #4, You can cover more material in less time.  #5, You can view the message for years to come.  #6, It is the basis for small group discussions.  #7, You can use multiple translations.  #8, Unbelievers don’t bring Bibles–they don’t have Bibles…and even if they did they would not know where to find the passage!
#3 - Spiritual Growth Is Incremental
  • it happens in steps, not overnight.  I Corinthians 3:18!  A baby has to learn to breathe, to eat, to walk, to talk…what is true physically is true spiritually.
  • You’ve got to know Christ before you can love Him.  You’ve got to love Him before you can serve Him.  You have to serve Him before you can share Him…
#4 - Spiritual Growth Is Personal
  • Reality is we grow according to how we are shaped.  II Corinthians 5:13
#5 - Spiritual Growth Is Habitual
  • We grow by developing good habits.
  • How do we develop habits?  #1 - Give homework at the end of a message.  (It’s not just about belief–it’s about behavior).  #2 - Challenge people to journal.  #3 - Provide a daily e-mail devotional/podcast.
#6 - Spiritual Growth Is Relational
  • A huge myth is that you can become spiritually mature on your own.  We can only grow in community.  American have gotten so into isolation that we don’t believe this.
  • If you are not in community then there are at least 58 commands in the Bible that you can’t do.
  • You learn to love by being around unlovely people.
  • Knowledge makes us feel important…but love IS what is important.  Hebrews 10:25
  • Three tools for relational growth - small groups, spiritual coaches, retreats!
#7 - Spiritual Growth Is Multi-Dimensional
  • Real maturity is so much more about knowing…it is about doing.
  • To be a Pharisee…you had to memorize the Torah!  And these are the people that Jesus went off on!  They KNEW but didn’t do!
  • We’ve got to be about public charity and personal purity!
#8 - Spiritual Growth Is Seasonal
  • There are times of growth and times of consolidation!  In the fall and winter it may not look like you are growing…but you are actually putting down roots!  (DANG!!!)
  • Just as sure as winter comes…so does spring and summer.  NOTHING is on all of the time.  No church can be in a continual state of growth.
  • Don’t worry about the speed & size of your church…worry about the growth of your people.
  • We grow in spurts!  Pastors can’t push their people all of the time
  • Growth seasons are done around Saddleback during campaigns.  “I love my church campaign, I want to grow campaign, etc.”
  • How are you moving people from “come and see” to “come and die?”  

May 22, 2008

70 Five Oakers Registered for Leadership Summit

Yes, that's right...70! I am so excited. I loved that video Mike Binkley produced with Brian and Karen Burquest talking about the Summit. So well done. I'm trying to get it posted online and will let you know when I do.

May 21, 2008

New Home for Five Oaks Hudson Starting June 15

I got a tour of our new home for the Hudson campus yesterday at the open house for the Hudson 12 Theatre. This is going to be a great move for us. The theater opens this weekend and we move in June 15. We'll be sending an impact card to 27,000 homes in Hudson and surrounding communities next month. We'll have copies for all Five Oakers to distribute, too.

The theater can be seen from I94, to the south on the road leading to River Falls. This is an outstanding location and everybody we want to reach in that area will know where it is. Pray for this one-time opportunity to piggy back on their advertisement and the buzz surrounding the opening of the new theater.

Colson on God and the Mind

From today's Breakpoint email (incidentally, Chuck Colson will be speaking at the Leadership Summit):
"God Speaks: Neuroscience and God"
May 21, 2008
Chuck Colson

In a recent issue of the New York Times, respected columnist David Brooks described how what he calls a "revolution in neuroscience" is shaping "how people see the world." I agree with him—up to a point.

What Brooks calls the "revolution in neuroscience" is the rapidly growing body of research into phenomena such as religious experience and shared moral intuitions.

In one such experiment, volunteers are asked to imagine the following scenario: A village is under attack, and its residents are in hiding. Suddenly, a baby begins to cry. Its crying threatens to reveal their location.

Volunteers are asked whether killing the child to save the others is justified. Not only does the vast majority say "no"—thankfully—but CAT scans and EEGs reveal that the same part of their brains is active when they react to the question.

This and similar studies have, as Brooks put it, "shifted away the momentum" from seeing our minds in purely materialistic terms. Our brains are not "cold machines." Rather, "meaning, belief and consciousness seem to emerge mysteriously from idiosyncratic networks of neural firings."

And Brooks is right when he says that research like this will turn the recent debates over atheism into a "sideshow." There is simply no way to sustain a "hard-core" materialistic understanding of human consciousness and morality in light of the new research. Where does the consciousness and moral decision-making come from?

However, I disagree with him when he writes that this research will pose a challenge to "faith in the Bible" and, instead, lead to what he calls "neural Buddhism."

If anything, the opposite is true. This rebuttal of modern materialistic reductionism is a confirmation of what the Scriptures teach us about being created in the image of God.

It corroborates the biblical idea that we are, to use a modern phrase, "hard-wired" for spirituality and God. It suggests that we are irresistibly religious, as philosophers have always argued.

Now, Brooks goes on to say that this will lead to a form of vague spiritual mysticism. This will happen, he says, because Orthodox believers will have trouble defending "particular doctrines and particular biblical teachings."

Well, Brooks is wrong. The evidence from neuroscience is only part of the picture. While the mystical religious experiences and moral intuitions he writes about are shared by many religious traditions, there is no comparable evidence for Buddhism's other claims: Its tenets about reincarnation and the illusory nature of physical existence cannot be substantiated.

In contrast, as I point out in my book The Faith, the Bible's claims can be substantiated. It makes the very same claims about universal moral intuitions that neuroscientists are now proving.

It is not only the Bible's moral and anthropological claims that are being proven: Archeology is increasingly proving Scripture's historical claims, as well.

In many ways, see, the Bible anticipates contemporary scientific discoveries—as in Romans 2. It is not because the writers of Scripture were lucky—it is because the Bible is the revealed Word of God.

As I wrote in The Faith, the two great propositions Christians believe are that "God is" and "God has spoken." The discoveries Brooks describes validate both, which should not surprise any of us.

First Impressions Weekly Update

Here are the comments from cards we send out to first-time guests (this one is a little embarrassing to include, but I print every word of every card unless it takes away from anonymity...no my mom didn't get a card this week in case you're wondering):

Woodbury
  • Love the service – love Henry.
  • Great message! Enjoyed the facility and had a friendly gal at the information center. Work a little bit on the (music) sound – I noticed quite a bit of “tinging” sound during the music sets.

May 20, 2008

Five Oaks Staff at Feed My Starving Children

Feed2 Feed5 Feed4 Feed3
Feed1 Seventeen Five Oaks staff headed out today to Feed My Starving Children. I've written about this before, but this is a great ministry and a great P.E.A.C.E. activity for your small group, family or staff team at work. Kids as young as five can participate.

We worked with a few other people and assembled meals to feed 27 children for a year! You always to get to taste a sample of the food and we got to pray over the boxes we filled (that was new in my experience there). Great time, lots of fun and laughter.

May 19, 2008

Another Missions Partner Update from China

Please lift us up immediately!  As you know we experienced an earthquake here in our city this past Monday afternoon.  We have had many afterschocks, yesterday a fairly substantial one.  Tonight we are having a thunder and lightening storm.  No big deal to us Wisconsin/Minnesotanites right?  Right!  Accept in our 3 plus years here we have had very few storms and even rarer to hear thunder and see lightening. 

So why the concern?  One of the big fears around town is that some of the hard hit mountain cities also have dams which have been cracked by the quakes and there are already fears of them breaking.  One dam in particular is very large and would result in the flooding of much of our city-home to over ten million people. 

Many people are currently living outdoors out of fear of a recurring quake and further structural damage if not collapse of their highrise buildings.  Also many of the relief efforts are still underway night and day as we approach 135 hours the race is closing. 

Several of our local friends and teammates are staying in these mountainous places volunteering with rescue and medical operations.  We fear their safety and those they have gone to help.  Please pray for these dear people.  That all would cry out to Him who is able to keep them and that God in His mercy would spare us from another tragedy of a flood.  Thanks!

Sleepless in Sichuan

Mission Partner Report from China

China1 China2 China3 China4 China5We got a report from one of our missions partners. I'll include it below. He sent along these pictures that show people living in the outdoors to avoid being in buildings that might still collapse. Hospitals have moved outdoors (see picture 4) and to complicate things, it's been raining. This opens opportunities for ministry, so pray for relief, help and open doors.

Hello Friends,

I am sending yet another update concerning the earthquake ravaged area of China.  We are calling for urgent prayer for the situation in China, in fact our organization country leader has called our coworkers living in China to pray and fast this week.  It seems the forces of good and evil are colliding in a intense battle over Sichuan province.  The magnitude 7.9 earthquake has killed over 50,000 people many of whom were children attending schools, followed by over 50 (to date) aftershocks above magnitude 4.5 (all serious earthquakes as well) causing many landslides and killing more people.  These aftershocks are also adding to the stress being felt by those living in the area as they fear more damage.  Many in Chengdu are sleeping outside even in the rain for fear their homes will be the next to collapse.  Over four million homes have been destroyed or heavily damaged by this earthquake.

Yesterday I read about one town, where relief efforts were underway, that had to be evacuated because it was feared a landslide-caused dam was about to break.  There are also many other dangers in the area such as over 200 dams that have cracks (some serious) and fears of radiation leaks from nuclear reactors in the area.  Now there are thunderstorms and heavy rains adding to the misery with fears of dams breaking and floods coming. 

I am convinced that a huge door has opened to our work in China as a result of the Sichuan earthquake tragedy of May 12th.  I see God using the relief effort in the Sichuan area to reveal God’s love to many including those in the government, those in China and those in the West.  I am amazed how quickly God can bring the great and mighty to their knees before Him.   The openness to the West through this tragedy is unprecedented in China.  As believers join together from the West and the East in sharing the love of Jesus through these earthquake relief efforts, who knows what impact will be made for the gospel.  An impact that will be felt for years if not for a generation.  I believe this tragedy and the potential for God’s glory through the recovery efforts is on a scale that a generation could be impacted in China.

All of us, in the West and the East, need to be humbly on our knees before God to seek His direction about what role He wants us to play in this drama as it unfolds.  We are being told that this relief effort will be a marathon and not a sprint as millions of people will need to be helped over the coming weeks, months and yes...years.   Please pray with is as we make a decision this week about whether or not to go help in the relief effort in Chengdu.  Over 16,000 critically injured people have been moved from the mountains to Chengdu.  [My wife's] skills as a registered nurse would be extremely helpful there right now but we’re not sure we’d be helpful at this time or just get in the way.  We need wisdom from above.

For the King...

May 15, 2008

First Impressions Weekly Update

From the card we send newcomers (just one this week):

Woodbury:

  • Wonderful worship service, friendly people, excellent facility. I’ll be back the next time I visit Woodbury!

May 14, 2008

Dealing with Critics

Pastor Perry Noble of NewSpring Church has an interesting post on dealing with critics. In a church of 7000 plus, as well as a national platform, the number of critics someone like Perry faces is enormous. I have been following Perry for a while and I've seen most of the phases he mentions in this post come out in his preaching and blogging (he's very transparent about what's going on in his life). Here are the highlights:

Five Phases In Dealing With A Critic
Posted: 08 May 2008

...In my opinion–there are basically five phases in dealing with a critic.

#1 - The Explanation Phase

Early on in the days of NewSpring Church I honestly felt that if I could sit down with the people that were critical of the ministry that the Lord has called me to do that I could reason with them and help them to fully understand why we did ministry the way we did it.

It didn’t take me long to realize that most critics don’t want an explanation…they want an argument...

#2 - The Argument Phase

The next phase is the one where I tried to argue with everyone…I mean EVERYONE who had a negative word to say about the ministry. This was dangerous for me because I developed an “us versus them” mentality and began to think that everyone who wasn’t doing ministry like us just wasn’t doing ministry.

The Apostle Paul warns in II Timothy 2:23 not to have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments…and it took me a long time but I finally realized that the arguments I was involved in were both foolish and stupid…so I moved past that phase and moved to…

#3 - The Anger Phase (aka…the Punch Someone In The Throat Phase!)

There was a period in my ministry (December 2005 until March of 2007) where I was letting anger get the best of me. I was allowing myself to be controlled by it. I was spending most of my time trying to respond to my critics rather than really listening to the Lord…and it damaged me emotionally and spiritually.

Paul warns in Ephesians 4:27 NOT to give the devil a foothold…but I ignored that warning and allowed it anyways.

I won’t go through all that Jesus had to do to pull me out of this phase…but I will say that Craig Groeshel was a MAJOR instrument that God used to free me up from this attitude. I remember him saying once at a round table, “Some of you in the room (and he looked at me) are beating up hundreds, possibly even thousands, of people in your church up every week just because of one e-mail from a negative person.”...

#4 - The Ignore Phase

This is where I am right now…I ignore critics. I don’t read their blogs…I don’t receive their e-mails…and this either does one of two things to them…

First of all–it REALLY ticks them off…but then second of all…they usually go away. Seriously, if you refuse to put fuel on the fire they start…it will eventually go out.

I love what Nehemiah said in Nehemiah 6:1-4 when his critics tried to get him to take his eyes off of the work, “I am doing a great work…and I cannot come down.”...

…it has set me free in a major way.

(I will ALWAYS listen to someone who loves Jesus and loves me…but I will never listen to a blogger who has no life OR someone who sends in an email with a fake address…I don’t have time for them–and neither do you!)

#5 - The Compassion Phase

I am almost here…not quite. (Just being honest.) I wrestle with this. I see in Luke 15 when the prodigal son comes home and the older brother doesn’t come in the house to meet him that the Father goes outside and pleads with the older brother to come in.

I think we are called to do the same because…in that story…it would seem that the oder brother (who was the critic) was just as lost as the younger one.

Jesus dealt with this as well…He did weep over Jerusalem…but He also turned over temple tables. There IS a time to respond in boldness…but there is also a time to respond with compassion because, well, people just don’t understand.

Compassion does not mean trying to explain to them…or even exchanging emails with them…but praying for them...

I’m almost here…and, with God’s help, maybe one day I will be! (Once again–just being honest!)

May 13, 2008

Helping Burma Cyclone Victims

This is from Jennifer Dunbar, our Karen refugee local P.E.A.C.E. coordinator on how to help. Myanmar is the home country of the Karen.

Several people have asked if there are ways to help the cyclone victims in Burma.  I spoke to World Relief, and they recommend donating through Gospel for Asia if people are interested.  This is a mission which has been in Burma for years.  Their Bible school in Rangoon (Yangon) is housing many cyclone victims.  Their website is www.gfa.org.  They have information about the cyclone and ways to help.

May 08, 2008

Relevance Conference (Eagle Brook) - Session Three

“Recapture Your Courage” - Bob Merritt

  • Leaders battle fear and insecurities, as does everyone on the planet.
  • “I have battled fear and insecurity all my life. And reaching goals doesn’t free me of fear. It only means the expectations are now higher.”
  • The difference isn’t fear but the willingness to jump.
  • Source of Fear: People. Abraham afraid of Egyptian officials. Elijah afraid of Jezebel. Peter afraid of servant girl. David afraid of Saul.
  • Hire staff very carefully.
  • “Churches attract a lot of weirdos. I’m not talking about the hurting... I'm talking about people who are just nutty and no amount of prayer will change them. ...They’re omnipresent... They’ll pull you off mission.” Have to set boundaries to survive them.
  • Some people think their purpose in life is to straighten you out.
  • Source of Fear: The demands of this job. The expectation for excellence keeps going up  (not mean perfection).
  • We’re competing with home entertainment centers, kids sports, cabins, golf... Weekend services have to be excellent.
  • All other ministries take their cue form the worship service.
  • Two or three mediocre weekends in a row can take weeks to overcome so invitors feel comfortable again.
  • Areas for immediate improvement: (1) Lengthy or awkward transitions...musicians rehearse transitions; (2) Announcements: long, boring announcements will kill a service...can’t have nervous or choppy announcements...written out, rehearsed and never more than three minutes or three in total...announcer has to make a warm connection with the congregation; (3) Music: Do whatever it takes to get the right people...put people on the stage for the benefit of the people out there, not the person on the stage; (4) Message: Very few people decide to follow Christ and get life transformed through the music, it happens through proclamation of the word
  • Making messages better: (1) Make prep first priority of the week; (2) Involve your team - ask for input; (3) Insist on story and humor every week - people love to laugh; (4) Labor over every phrase; (5) Read constantly; (6) Share the teaching load.
  • Sweat the details. If senior leaders don’t hold the line on excellence, it has a trickle down effect.
  • Start with what’s broken and needs attention. What’s a dysfunction or barrier?
  • Value incremental change. Nothing good happen overnight. No major breakthroughs or silver bullets. There is no one great program. It’s the small things every day that leads to the big things.

Relevance Conference (Eagle Brook) - Session Two

"Refill Your Tank" - Amy Anderson

  • 3 Basic Project Models: (1) from scratch; (2) hamburger helper; (3) hot pockets
  • Examples of each (you had to be there): All very good.
  • Creative Process: (1) Message Plan from Bob (6 - 9 months); (2) Prioritize (not all series are created equal; inreach and outreach); (3) Pass the info on; (4) Creative Team looks at details and messages to after best opportunities; (5) Produce the project (if short term, use “hot pockets” but weeks out can do from scratch or hamburger helper).
  • Sometimes you have to stop doing some things to focus on the best opportunities. Example: When Eagle Brook stopped doing different styles of services this last year to focus and launch new campus.

Politics and Church Leaders

If you want to get my take on politics and the church, take a look at the "Categories" section on the right side of this page and link on "Politics." Here are some insights from John Ortberg (a summary of his article follows):

Talking Religion and Politics without Getting Co-opted
by John Ortberg

Anybody but me notice that this is an election year?

...Here's the problem: politics is an important sphere of human activity, and as such God is keenly interested in it. It was the Dutch theologian and politician (why don't we have more of those?) Abraham Kuyper who famously said, "There is not one inch of creation about which Jesus Christ does not say: 'This is mine!'"

However, as soon as human beings (including church leaders) start assuming they are in a position to pronounce God's political leanings, things get a little dicey.

In Abraham Lincoln's Second Inaugural Address, which remains the high water mark in presidential theological reflection, he notes that "Both (the North and the South) read the same Bible, and pray to the same God; and each invokes His aid against the other." So maybe a way to place politics in its proper context is with a little thought experiment.

Imagine that we elected all the right people to all the right offices. President, Congress, governors, right down to the school board, city council members, and dog catcher (which, by the way, does anyone still get to vote for?) Let's imagine that all of these ideal office holders instituted all the right policies. Every piece of legislation—from zoning laws, to tax codes, to immigration policy, to crime bills—is just exactly the way you know it ought to be.

Would that usher in perfection?

...no human system has the ability to change the human heart. Not even democracy, or capitalism, or  post-modern-emergent-ancient-future-missionalism. T.S. Elliot summed up our quandary brilliantly: "We want a system of order so perfect that we do not have to be good."

...no human system has the ability to change the human heart. Not even democracy, or capitalism, or  post-modern - emergent - ancient - future - missionalism. T.S. Elliot summed up our quandary brilliantly: "We want a system of order so perfect that we do not have to be good."

Systems are important but they're also complicated. Historian Mark Noll notes that evangelicals often fail to add value in politics because we like simplicity: good vs. evil; right vs. wrong. Political and economic arrangements are full of complexity and nuance. Well-intended legislation may lead to poor results. When we condition people to think that every bill is a battle between the forces of righteousness versus the minions of darkness, we do not serve the process well. But we specialize in polarizing. No parachurch organization with a political agenda ever sent out a fund-raising letter noting that an upcoming bill was "likely to do 40 percent more good than harm."

We ought to be engaged in the political process. ...We should do it in a way that is civil and respectful and redemptive. ...But we should also remember that the church is not called to be one more political interest group.

The human race needs an administration of another kind. There is one possibility. Someone needs to be in a position to say: "The kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe the Good News." Scholars like N.T. Wright remin